hi. i've noticed that there is very limited use of harmony in a lot of the indian classical music I'lve been exposed to .. karnatika style, bengali bhajan etc .....
is there a reason for this that anyone can share here?
ekendra
is there a reason for this that anyone can share here?
ekendra
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Re: harmonies in indian classical music
Sun, October 22, 2006 - 10:33 PMI'd have to hear particular examples of the styles you mention. (MP3 links?) I have heard many bhajans, and I'm friends with a singing family from Lahore, the children of Ustad Salamat Khan, and I've never heard harmonies used in any of the styles they sing in.
But once, when I was in the group vocal classes at the Ali Akbar College, Khan-sahib (Ustad Ali Akbar Khan) divided the class up into several sections and taught us several lines to sing simultaneously which did harmonize - BUT, he kept emphasizing that "this is not harmony"....! I'm still not sure I understand what he meant. That the harmony was merely coincidental?
Generally I understand the tradition as exclusively melodic and rhythmic. But I could ask my current teacher (a sitarist - I study on fretless guitar.) Though not Indian, he studied for ten years in India, and may have been exposed to some examples himself. -
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Re: harmonies in indian classical music
Sun, October 22, 2006 - 11:35 PMcool. I've heard from a few folks that harmony is considered in strict classical schools to be 'rajasic' or too passionate for religious music which most of the Indian classical is. The focus is on purity and not composition so melody and rhythm are emphasised more than the harmony stuff we are used to in contemporary music.
interesting background you have. Since you asked for mp3 links then I have to serve some delicious vibrations your way ....
www.harekrishna.org.au/media/...ala.mp3
here's a good example of what I mean. cool mystical bhajan isn't it?
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Re: harmonies in indian classical music
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 3:06 AMIn a standard western musical sense of harmony. Indian classical musicians usually do not play cords on their instruments.
But, I think there is definately harmony in the music because of the drone. A four stringed tambura is the essential drone instrument for a large amount of the music. This is one of the only instruments designed to completely produce a steady, harmonically resonant drone. It is usuallt tuned to the root note and the fifth ot fourth interval of the scale. These are also common harmonies in western music. Most chords are built upon this kind of harmonic structure. Now, when an indian classical musician plays an instrument or sings into the tambura that note combines with the drones in the tambura(root and 5th) and produces a sort of harmony.
To me this is very similar to a chord, just different approach and effect. -
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Re: harmonies in indian classical music
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 9:34 AMWell, yes and no.
First of all, what's different from modern western music about the "chords" in Indian music that are formed in passing by the notes of the thaat (scale) played on the melody instrument against the two notes of the drone (usually sa and pa - root and fifth - but can be sa and ma - root and fourth - or sa and ni - root and seventh) is that, because the tuning used in the indian system - a form of just intonation - any of the combinations of notes that sound momentarily will be in some form (however complex) of integer ratio relationship. The intervals can all be expressed as integer ratios, and can all be derived from the harmonic series (however far up) of the root, thus forming a system of overall consonance, of being in tune. (Sur, in the Indian nomenclature.) Thus, this consonance is ultimately traceable back to the root, which is why the root is so important, and why Indian music does not modulate but stays in a fixed "key."
This is definitely *not* true of western (equal temperament) chords, where various combinations of notes, most if not all of which are *not* related to the harmonic series of the root note of whatever key you're in, will sound (to Indian ears) dissonant. ("Besur", or out of tune.)
The notes of the drone form, to western ears, a sort of two-note chord, but this is not how Indian music theory conceives of it. Whichever secondary note is used in the drone is conceived of simply as a subsidiary note with a relationship ultimately derived from the harmonic series. A consonance.
The way that Indian musicians conceive of the interval relationships between the notes of the thaat and the root and fifth, fourth or seventh gives primacy to the sa - the root. Everything else relates to the root for its significance. The only relationships of significance are those between the scale notes and the root and, to a lesser degree, those notes and whichever one of the other three possible drone notes is used in the drone. The relationships between the notes of the scale themselves (other than the root and secondary drone note) are incidental in significance. Their ultimate meaning and effect is derived from their relationship to the root, either directly or indirectly through their relationship to the other drone note. Technically, yes, "chords" are formed, but Indian music does nothing with such entities in its theory and implementation. The concept of chords as it has been developed in the West ultimately has no meaning in Indian music.
This may be what Khansahib was alluding to when he told us in that class that "this is *not* harmony!"
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Re: harmonies in indian classical music
Sun, November 26, 2006 - 10:04 PMKai,
that's nicely expounded. Nonetheless, leaving aside for a moment the Indian classical perspective, one could (arguably) say, objectively, that the "consonance" to which you allude is, itself, a basic form of what (in a Western context) is called "harmony" per se, yes? If so, one could say that a kind of pool of harmony exists throughout the exposition of the raag -- a pool of continuous consonance. It doesn't need (as in Western music) to be specifically constructed around the lattice of the melody (i.e., with secondary melodic lines following at a 3rd interval or the like); it exists, rather, in a more pervasive way.
Anyway, that's how I'm somewhat inclined to think of it. -
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Re: harmonies in indian classical music
Mon, November 27, 2006 - 3:50 AMhmm -- or one can turn the tables a bit, and say:
Harmony is a particular instance of the more general phenomenon of Consonance.
And the latter [Consonance] my ultimately have -- at least in an Indian classical / modal / just-intoned context -- a wider / more direct claim to value / utility / meaning than does the former [Harmony].
Harmony is a form of Conanance one manages to eke out (and build with) in a situation where Consonance per se is rather under seige.
Consonance is a form of Harmony that one may rely on (and may find to be sufficient) in a situation where Consonance is all-pervasive.
Nonetheless, I've (on rare occasion) heard a sitarist play at doing a harmony riff, for all of a couple seconds. Don't recall who.
Of course some experimentalists (e.g. with fusion) -- e.g. L. Subramaniam or L. Shankar -- have ventured extensively into a land where BOTH Harmony and Consonance are at play (sometimes alternatingly).
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